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 Post subject: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 1:14 pm 
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Joined: July 25th, 2012, 7:47 am
Posts: 39
The new regulation (this one from Philly, but I assume all consulates will follow this?):
ALL DOCUMENTS MUST BE SUBMITTED IN ORIGINAL (Please note: Starting October 1st 2012, applicants with relatives that presented documents at other Italian Consulates are required to provide new originals, “Copie Conformi” will no longer be accepted. Documents of relatives present at the Philadelphia Consulate can still be used).

This poses a huge obstacle for my family members who want to apply, and thought they were just going to be able to reference my file in Philadelphia. My brother has his appointment set in Los Angeles, and my father has an appointment set in Miami.

It would appear the choices to citizenship for them are:
1. Start from scratch, getting all the original documents, apostilles, and authentications going back to my GGF .
2. Relocate somewhere under the jurisdiction of the Phila. consulate

I'm trying to figure out which would be less painful. Option 1 would be brutally time-consuming and relatively expensive. And just seems like a terrible waste of resources since all this work has already been done.

Option 2 may be better? Temporarily relocate and apply at the consulate where the paperwork is already on file.

Thoughts???


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 1:23 pm 
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Joined: October 30th, 2011, 7:53 am
Posts: 816
Anyone know if SF has this same rule. I thought somewhere someone wrote that they're okay with Copie Conformi. I'm sure my brother is going to have a cow. Even though I did all the work tracking down documents, I used the only copy of my grandfather's and mother's birth certificates anyone had. He'd need to get them with a court order.

Do you have an extra bedroom for your all your family members from out of town? ;-)

I suppose that's why I've seen consulates not only ask for a Driver's license but also ask for things like a bank statement and a utility bill to prove residence. It's "easy enough" I suppose for someone to establish temporary residence within another consulate's jurisdiction, though you'd have to weight the inconvenience and cost of doing that compare to the inconvenience and cost of getting brand new documents.


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 2:33 pm 
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Joined: July 25th, 2012, 7:47 am
Posts: 39
Here's from the SF website:

http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/NR/rdonlyres/31F414DC-2BAC-4781-B3CE-C2DFA0C0AF41/0/CittadinanzaJuresanguinis_ENGLISH_11022012.pdf

NOTICE:
As of 10 October 2012, in accordance with memoranda issued by the Ministero degli Affari Esteri (MAE Messaggio 2435392012-10-02), this Consulate will no longer refer to the files of other Consulates or Comuni (municipalities) in Italy. Therefore, if you are applying after a family member has already received recognition of citizenship by descent from the same ancestor, you will be required to present all family documents from scratch, in original.
All prior advice, written or verbal, by Consular officials on this topic should be disregarded, including any statements contained in prior versions of this guide.
Documents on file with this Consulate still do not need to be duplicated. We extend our sincere apologies for the inconvenience.


Looks like they no longer accept copie conformi. Ugh!


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 5:32 pm 
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Joined: June 13th, 2009, 8:40 pm
Posts: 11705
Location: Tokyo, Japan
This is probably now the 6th topic on this subject in the past month, in addition to all the topics were it was mentioned in passing.

I made the same observation about copie conformi on this post yesterday: success-in-philly-t3557-40.html

It seems that SF did say copie conformi were permitted last month and then took that information down, unless someone can find it elsewhere on their website.


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 6:09 pm 
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Joined: February 13th, 2010, 11:31 am
Posts: 499
Last month SF mentioned copie conforme as an option; that option has been removed from the current version of the js guide. A message on their home page mentions the ban on using other Consulates' documents for citizenship, directing one to the guide for more info.

Ugh, the cost of my brother's application just doubled, as did the amount of work I'll have to do since I promised to coordinate document procurement for him. :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 15th, 2012, 7:24 pm 
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Joined: June 13th, 2009, 8:40 pm
Posts: 11705
Location: Tokyo, Japan
I'm having a hard time coming up with a reason why they would ban copie conformi except to reduce the number of applications by making the process harder. Can anyone else see a reason?


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 16th, 2012, 6:15 am 
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Joined: February 13th, 2010, 11:31 am
Posts: 499
My first thought was interconsular conflict caused by stricter consulates unwilling to accept extrajurisdictional relatives' applications formerly approved by less demanding consulates. Although I believe there have been cases reported here where the stricter consulate simply requires additional documents, amendments, etc to supplement the relative's approved application.

Perhaps already burdened consulates simply don't have the time and/or manpower to offer the copie conforme service, or there has been some kind of fraud related to piggyback applications?


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 16th, 2012, 7:51 am 
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Joined: June 13th, 2009, 8:40 pm
Posts: 11705
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Your first thought explains why they won't accept a letter of recognition for a relative, but not why they wouldn't accept copie conformi. Moreover, if you move and go to register at a consulate after having been recognized somewhere else, they don't re-investigate your case to make sure that you really should've been recognized - you've already had your birth registered at a comune.


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 16th, 2012, 9:02 am 
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Joined: April 21st, 2012, 12:50 pm
Posts: 118
restjohn,

Once your father is recognized your brother should be able to use your father's Italian birth certificate to have his citizenship recognized. So there's a little bit less work...

I don't know if you've submitted your complete documentation already but I've read cases of out-of-jurisdiction family members being recognized by another family member's consulate. If your father happens to be in town when you submit your application maybe bring him with you and see if you get lucky...

Or, maybe ask if you can have your documents returned so your father can submit his application first. Then you would just need to order two copies of your father's Italian birth certificate - and probably two copies of your parent's Italian marriage certificate - and you could have the whole family recognized more economically.


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 Post subject: Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
Unread postPosted: November 16th, 2012, 9:47 am 
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Joined: July 25th, 2012, 7:47 am
Posts: 39
Quote:
Author Message
lcannuli
Posted: November 16th, 2012, 12:02 pm
Re: New Piggybacking Regulations
restjohn,

Once your father is recognized your brother should be able to use your father's Italian birth certificate to have his citizenship recognized. So there's a little bit less work...


Yes, that's true. But my brother's appointment in LA is next summer, my father's appointment in Miami is in late 2014. And it's my understanding that even though my father will be on file in Philadelphia from my application, he would have to start the entire process from scratch back to my GGF in Miami? It would be so wonderful if as my direct ascendent he would also be recognized based on my application.

Quote:
Or, maybe ask if you can have your documents returned so your father can submit his application first. Then you would just need to order two copies of your father's Italian birth certificate - and probably two copies of your parent's Italian marriage certificate - and you could have the whole family recognized more economically.

This could potentially work, although I've never heard of anyone getting their documents back once they've been submitted. Do you mean temporarily withdraw my application? In that case, we would have to wait until my dad's appointment in Miami in late 2014. Then I would have to make another appointment in Philly for after that. Since I'm the one that did all the work and incurred all the expense, I really don't want to be set back several years.

These regulations change all the time... there's always the chance they will change back, right? Or historically, have all the rules been put in place to make the citizenship process more difficult?


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