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 Post subject: Re: Social Security Taxes and INPS certificate
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 13th, 2017, 10:15 am 
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Joined: March 26th, 2014, 12:19 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Padova, Italy
Hi all, me again :)
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have one more question on this Social Security/INPS situation.


A friend of mine (American, living in italy, self-employed and permanent resident but not a dual citizen) recently met with an American accountant living in Italy for the past 30 some years. This accountant told my friend that even though she has been here in Italy for some time now and has been self-employed and paying INPS for a few years, she can actually switch over to the American Social Security system if she so chooses. She sent the totalization agreement to her Italian accountant, who seems to agree.

However, from what has been discussed here and from what I've read on the social security website, once you opt for one system or the other, that's it until your residence or job changes. I called the social security office to verify, they had no idea. I called the American embassy, social security office, they had even less of a clue. I've read the agreement in English and in Italian, and the part that I get tripped up on is the term "period of work", which doesn't seem to be defined in the agreement.


Has anyone here tried to switch from INPS to SS successfully? Or, conversely, can anyone definitively state this is impossible?
(BBCWatcher I know you suggested moving back to the US for a bit, but that's not really possible at the moment)

Grazie!

_________________
Consulate: SF
Appointment date: November 2013
Letter received: June 2014
Citizenship contested by prefettura: Oct 2014
Finally registered in the stato civile: February 2015
GGF>GF>M


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 Post subject: Re: Social Security Taxes and INPS certificate
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 15th, 2017, 8:19 am 
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Joined: June 12th, 2009, 9:54 pm
Posts: 7142
Location: Singapore
U.S. citizens who are not also Italian citizens are treated differently under the social security treaty. It appears that such individuals who are self-employed can switch back to the U.S. system if they wish. As long as INPS doesn't raise an objection, I don't see any problem with that.

When the time comes, your friend will still be able to claim a modest INPS retirement benefit since he/she has presumably made enough contributions into the Italian system to qualify (when combined with U.S. contributions). He/she will need to notify INPS of his/her contributions to the U.S. system so they can "totalize" them, but that's all that should be required.


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 Post subject: Re: Social Security Taxes and INPS certificate
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 15th, 2017, 11:30 am 
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Joined: March 26th, 2014, 12:19 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Padova, Italy
I thought you might have the answer BBCWatcher :)
So US-only nationals can switch when they want, but dual citizens cannot switch until something changes with their job/residence status.
Thanks!

_________________
Consulate: SF
Appointment date: November 2013
Letter received: June 2014
Citizenship contested by prefettura: Oct 2014
Finally registered in the stato civile: February 2015
GGF>GF>M


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 Post subject: Re: Social Security Taxes and INPS certificate
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 15th, 2017, 9:14 pm 
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Joined: June 12th, 2009, 9:54 pm
Posts: 7142
Location: Singapore
It appears that way, but I would check the exact wording of the treaty to confirm. Beyond that, only INPS would be in a position to object. Assuming they're notified in writing and don't object, that should be that.


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 Post subject: Re: Social Security Taxes and INPS certificate
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 21st, 2017, 12:26 pm 
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Joined: March 26th, 2014, 12:19 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Padova, Italy
Yes, I checked the text of the agreement. It states:

Article 7, part 4a:
A national of Italy or a national of both States who, with respect to the same period of work, would be subject to the laws of both States shall, for such period, elect to remain subject to the laws of one of the States and shall be exempt from the laws of the other State;

and the explanatory note says:
Article 7.4 provides three exceptions to the preceding paragraphs: (a) a national of one State covered in both remains covered in the State of which he is a national and is exempt in the other; (b) dual nationals with dual coverage, and Italians working in the United States for Italian employers, may elect the State in which they are to be covered (presumably dual national will choose to remain covered under the system where they can maintain continuity of coverage while some Italians who come to work in the United States, even temporarily, may prefer to be covered in the United States rather than in Italy); (c) third country nationals are covered where they work. Restrictions on the exercise of elections are contained in Article 3.3 of the Administrative Protocol.

Article 3.3 of the Administrative Protocol says:

An election provided for in Article 7.4b of the Agreement or in this paragraph shall be exercised within 3 months following the month in which a period of work for any employer begins or the right to amend the election arises. The election shall be binding with respect to that period of work. In the case of an Italian national who is not a national of both States, any such election may be amended during the second year after the beginning of the period of work and the election as amended shall be applicable from the date it is made for future periods of work where Article 7.4b of the Agreement applies; except that such an Italian national shall be afforded the opportunity to further amend his election if he subsequently acquires or loses the status of permanent resident of the United States.

and the explanatory note says:

Paragraph 3 places limitations on the exercise of elections of which system will provide coverage under paragraph 7.4b of the agreement. The initial election must be exercised within 3 months of the commencement of the right to exercise the election. For Italian nationals, the election may be amended during the second year following the start of a particular period of work. Thereafter the initial or amended election shall apply to all future periods of work. Another election is permissible if an Italian national changes his status as to permanent U.S. residence.

I'm assuming that "period of work", in my case is essentially as long as I'm self-employed AND a resident of Italy?

_________________
Consulate: SF
Appointment date: November 2013
Letter received: June 2014
Citizenship contested by prefettura: Oct 2014
Finally registered in the stato civile: February 2015
GGF>GF>M


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