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 Post subject: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: March 30th, 2013, 12:37 am 
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Hi everyone,

I just received word from Luigi Paiano that my case has been won in the Tribunale di Roma. My immediate family and I officially have now all been Italian citizens since birth. Needless to say, I am very pleased. Luigi estimates it will take another 8 months of bureaucracy before we can apply for passports. But the key thing is that we have the ruling.

There was only one (big) snag: My cousins and uncle decided they wanted to join the case after we made the initial petition. We successfully added them on the day of the hearing. However, they were not on the final ruling, and when Luigi asked the judge why, she said she had simply forgotten to add them, and that there is no way to go back and change the ruling; they will have to go through their own trial, at full expense, paying all the same taxes (thousands of euros). This is extremely frustrating.

In case anyone is interested, here are the details of my case.

The claim is through my (four) great-great-grandparents, to my great-grandparents, to my mother's mother. My mother, who was included on the case, was born in 1944, hence the need for the lawsuit. I have been working on the documentation for this for four years now; this included travelling to my comune (in Basilicata) to get records from the 1850s, and filing a case in New Jersey to get a delayed birth certificate for my GGF (born in 1886) using his baptismal record as evidence. But in the end, it all came together.

We were also lucky with the speed of the legal proceedings. The timetable [now updated as of 2014] was:

Aug 2012: Met with Luigi Paiano in Bologna and gave him all documents.
Oct 2012: Petition filed with the Tribunale di Roma.
Feb 2013: First hearing. The Judge decided a 2nd hearing would not be necessary.
Mar 2013: Decision received.
Aug 2013: Tax paid for case.
Dec 2013: Final certified decision issued by court; documents arrived at comune on 27 Dec.

Luigi seems to give conservative estimates for how long things will take, to avoid disappointing his clients. He warned us that it might take two years or more to get to this point; instead it has taken 8 months. I am hoping the next 8 months of bureaucracy necessary to have the documents filed in the comune etc will also go slightly more quickly than he estimates, but I don't know. I will post updates to this thread in the coming months to let you know how it progresses.

For anyone considering hiring Luigi Paiano, I would highly recommend it. He is very helpful, friendly and attentive, and he tries to keep expectations realistic.

Anyway, aside from this frustrating snag with my cousins, I am very happy to say I am (and have always been) Italian. :D

All the best to everyone.


Last edited by anzese on June 9th, 2014, 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: March 30th, 2013, 3:00 am 
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Location: Tokyo, Japan
Congratulations! Please update us on your progress.

Which documents did you need for your case?
Did you GGGF naturalize or not? What documents did you use to prove that?


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: March 30th, 2013, 4:34 am 
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malcolm wrote:
Which documents did you need for your case?
Did you GGGF naturalize or not? What documents did you use to prove that?

As far as I know, neither of my GGGFs were naturalized. The evidence I provided for this was just letters of no record from USCIS, and from the county where they lived in New Jersey. NARA would not have applied, because (as I recall) they don't have naturalization records going back to before my GGPs were born.

Aside from that, the only other documents needed were birth and marriage certificates all the way down. Death certificates turned out not to be necessary.

I can't be certain, but I suspect I saved a lot of time by going in person to my comune to request the 1st generation birth and marriage certificates -- they were extremely helpful and prepared everything in about 15 minutes. Who knows how long it would have taken if I had requested the documents by post.

Since I was eligible to claim citizenship through two lines (from each of my two pairs of GGGPs), and I wanted to be cautious, I gathered documents for both lines at once. However, the USCIS letter of no record for one of my GGGPs misstated his birth date, so Luigi said we could not use that line, but that it wasn't a problem, because you can only make the claim on the basis of one line of descent anyway.

Naturally, all the documents required apostilles. Also, they must be translated into Italian; however, if you are going through Luigi Paiano, I recommend you do not have the translations done yourself, but rather go through the translator recommended by his firm. This is because unlike what I have heard about the requirements of some of the consulates, in this case the translations need to be done by a certified translator. He uses a translator in Bologna who is efficient and has reasonable charges.

Anyone who is considering going through Luigi Paiano should email him to confirm the necessary documents beforehand. My impression is that since the decision is made by a judge, rather than a caseworker at a consulate, it is probably slightly more subjective. But there have now been enough of these cases that Paiano has a fairly good idea of what is required.

Also, although it isn't necessary to meet him in person, I recommend it just for the sake of visiting Bologna -- the food is excellent, and the architecture is beautiful :)


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: March 30th, 2013, 6:20 pm 
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Did you need birth certs for the spouses of people in your line (i.e., your father, GF, GGM, GGGM)?


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: March 30th, 2013, 7:58 pm 
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malcolm wrote:
Did you need birth certs for the spouses of people in your line (i.e., your father, GF, GGM, GGGM)?

Yes, marriage certificates and birth certificates for everyone, including spouses.


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 20th, 2013, 9:33 am 
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anzese,

1. Could you have petitioned with only the baptismal certificate or was the delayed birth cert strictly necessary?

2. Did you have the USCIS certificate of nonexistence and county court no records letters apostilled? If so, how?

3. How much does it cost in "taxes" to petition? Will Sig. Paiano also charge your uncle and cousins the same amount for the 2nd trial as well?

4. Couldn't you have just done a new search with USCIS under the correct date of birth for that GGGF if you wanted to go through him?

5. Was your line GGGF->GGF->GM->M? What was the other possible line? GGGF->GGM->GM->M?

6. Was your GM and her mother still alive in 1948? Did this issue ever come up in your case?

7. Even though your GGF was born in 1886, you would still have needed to search for naturalizations by his father up until 1907, since if his father had naturalized before your GGF's 21st birthday he would've lost his citizenship. Since NARA records start from 1906 (and some of them are even older), in theory you could've been asked for a NARA no records letter, but I suppose the judge wasn't aware of this. (Or the judge wasn't aware of the so-called 1912 rule, but I find that harder to believe.)


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 21st, 2013, 2:08 am 
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Quote:
1. Could you have petitioned with only the baptismal certificate or was the delayed birth cert strictly necessary?

The delayed birth certificate was necessary. The court in New Jersey accepted the baptismal record as evidence of the birth (along with statements of no record from the relevant agencies showing no birth certificate had been filed), but the Italian courts need a birth certificate.

Quote:
2. Did you have the USCIS certificate of nonexistence and county court no records letters apostilled? If so, how?

Yes. The USCIS apostilles came from the State Department, as per the instructions at http://www.state.gov/m/a/auth/index.htm. For the county, the New Jersey Treasury Department issues apostilles for county level documents within New Jersey.

Quote:
3. How much does it cost in "taxes" to petition? Will Sig. Paiano also charge your uncle and cousins the same amount for the 2nd trial as well?

He has very graciously offered a large discount for my uncle and cousins, in light of the circumstances. According to Mr Paiano, this will be barely enough to cover taxes and the costs of having his staff file the records with the comune, which he says is the most time consuming part of the whole process.

Paiano's fees vary depending on the number of people on the case, and I don't remember off the top of my head what proportion of that is made up of taxes. We paid a total of a few thousand euros, which was well worth it to get citizenship for three people plus children (it would have been six plus children, had my uncle and cousins joined at the time we initially petitioned). For exact figures, you are better off asking him directly.

Quote:
4. Couldn't you have just done a new search with USCIS under the correct date of birth for that GGGF if you wanted to go through him?

Yes, but there was no point, because it was equally good to go through the line we went through. By the time I realised this was a problem, I was actually standing in Luigi Paiano's office in Bologna with all the files, and I preferred to go ahead with it rather than incurring further delays.

Quote:
5. Was your line GGGF->GGF->GM->M? What was the other possible line? GGGF->GGM->GM->M?

The two possible lines were GGGF->GGF->GM->M and GGGF->GGM->GM->M. All four of my great-great-grandparents on my grandmother's side were from the same village. The one we ended up using was GGGF->GGM->GM->M.

Quote:
6. Was your GM and her mother still alive in 1948? Did this issue ever come up in your case?

My GM was alive in 1948, my GGM was not. It didn't come up -- why would this be an issue?

Quote:
7. Even though your GGF was born in 1886, you would still have needed to search for naturalizations by his father up until 1907, since if his father had naturalized before your GGF's 21st birthday he would've lost his citizenship. Since NARA records start from 1906 (and some of them are even older), in theory you could've been asked for a NARA no records letter, but I suppose the judge wasn't aware of this. (Or the judge wasn't aware of the so-called 1912 rule, but I find that harder to believe.)

I actually did have NARA do a search a few years ago when I started this process, and they came back with no records. But I didn't think to include a letter of no record in the documentation for the lawsuit. Maybe in retrospect I should have, but it wasn't necessary.

Ultimately making a judgement about whether someone was naturalised is always going to be a bit subjective, because at least up until a certain date, they could have been naturalised in hundreds of local county courts anywhere, whose records were never put in a central location. For that matter, they could have been naturalised in a third country and never told anyone about it.

I guess Italian consulates have specific guidelines for making this decision, but you have to remember that a judge sitting in Rome is not the same as a consular officer sitting in Chicago or New York. They aren't about to become familiar with the archival systems of the countries where all the plaintiffs come from in these cases (Argentina, Colombia, Brazil, the USA...). Their job is to decide whether, on the basis of the evidence presented to them, it seems reasonable to conclude that citizenship was transmitted, and they're presumably doing this with considerably more leeway than a consular officer, since they're judges, not bureaucrats.

Of course in theory, the defendants (the Ministry of the Interior) could argue against it--but they don't even bother to send a lawyer to these cases anymore, since they consistently lose. And if it were ever shown in future that I had withheld evidence, citizenship could be revoked. But since I have done a thorough search of not only NARA and USCIS, but of county records in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania, I'm as convinced as I can be that they were never naturalised.


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: April 21st, 2013, 5:21 am 
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anzese wrote:
Quote:
6. Was your GM and her mother still alive in 1948? Did this issue ever come up in your case?

My GM was alive in 1948, my GGM was not. It didn't come up -- why would this be an issue?

Until now, we've understood the rationale for 1948 cases, as reported by Italian lawyers such as Sig. Paiano, to be that in 1948 women acquired the right to pass on citizenship to their children, even children already born. If a woman died before 1948, however, then she never acquired such a right. It's phrased in terms of rights for women rather than for children because the part of the 1948 Constitution that is being used is that which granted equal rights to women. So if your GGM died before 1948, then your GM shouldn't have acquired Italian citizenship from her, under the understanding we've had of previous 1948 case rulings. Based on your case, it sounds like they're now even more generous with these cases, essentially acting as if the law prior to 1948 was always like that after it. Or perhaps they now are requiring only that the person who inherited citizenship from a woman was alive on or after 1 Jan 1948. Either way, this is good to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: July 3rd, 2013, 7:56 am 
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Posts: 16
Congratulations!

Luigi has over 80 cases won related to the 1948 rule. (I'm one of them and there are several others on this board and I know others are pursuing it). It is great to know that when I started in 2010/2011 there were only 4 cases won and now he is 100% successful in over 80 cases and growing. While the 'law' still exists, it is clear the courts agree that the 'law' is illogical/discriminatory or whatever the case may be.


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 Post subject: Re: Success with Luigi Paiano in the Court of Rome
UNREAD_POSTPosted: August 2nd, 2013, 6:10 pm 
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Joined: August 2nd, 2013, 5:58 pm
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Hi Mark...Good to hear you history and know that your case has been won.
I also started my process with Luigi two and a half year ago and it hasn´t finished yet.
The second trial was last april and the judge didn´t give the decision. So, I am still waiting !!!
I have never met Luigi, but I had very good references about him and that`s why I gave him my case.
Hope everythng finishes well and ASAP.
:)

and


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